EDIT.....2nd battery was reading 8.6V. Has never been charged... hopefully i've resolved this particular issue! Bought a lithium charger.... if this doesn't work then maybe i have broken my starter motor..?
I went to start car again for the first time in 5 weeks. (SR3, XX PDM/electronics)
Pre-heated the oil to 50 > master on, power button on, dry cranked for few seconds, fuel pressure showed up to about 3.1 bar before dropping down to 2.4+ > pushed start/stop, and the car just kept cranking away....after about 8-10 seconds i'd had enough, and had to turn it off at master switch.
Took a deep breath, dry cranked a few more seconds, and pushed start. This time it started to fire up, before cutting out. After maybe 3 more of these 'firing up then cutting out' moments, it eventually kept the idle.
I let it run for about 5 minutes. Water temp went to 85, oil temp at around 40, at that point i stopped the engine.
Came back about 10 mins later, when to start it, and..................Nothing. I heard a 'click' sound when pressing start button, that was it.
And it's remained like that, have tried a few times, its not turning the starter at all.
I have the 24V starting system, i've kept the battery in engine bay on trickle charge for the entire time its been sat in garage. Car reads 12.8-12.9V on it. Manual says that's what it should be.
Am i supposed to charge the 2nd battery also?
What on earth have i done, have i somehow broken the starter motor already?
But then why would it fire up and work, then somehow not work anymore?
😪
this is what it was reading before i turned it off.
Hopefully the second battery is the issue. Unfortunately you can burn up the starters if you start the car with a low charge, but hopefully it will work fine when you get the second battery chareged.
Charley
@charleyhradicalsportscarregistry-com
it didn't 😪
The battery itself woudn't charge, was giving an error on my lithium charger, so swapped it for a good one - same result. With no ignition on, if i hold down button for a second or so, all i hear is a distinct 'click' noise.
Does that sound like a starter motor to you?
@rojid .. I doubt the starter motor will be making the noise, more likely a relay in the starter circuit.
I've never had that problem, but would start by pulling the starter motor out and checking if it will turn (by hand or with the starter button pressed.)
Have you got a spare starter motor? I have one and carry it with me to the track, as I was told they can fail from time to time.
@charleyhradicalsportscarregistry-com
i used a multimeter to check if there's any power going to the starter in the first place - there wasn't.
Checked the main battery - reading 14.7V - all good.
Checked the 2nd lithium battery again, it was showing 4.6V - terrible.
This was the replacement battery that i'd put in 24 hours ago, that according to my charger was fully charged. When i tried to charge it...it wouldnt charge anymore - almost like putting it in the car had somehow broke the battery.
The original battery i took out the car was reading 9.4V....that won't charge either.
Then checked the price of the lithium battery i've got - £250. Ouch. Its some 'high performance' lightweight thing.
Can i just put in a standard AGM 12V bike battery as the 2nd battery?
And will the onboard charger charge it? Or does it need to be lithium?
really don't want to spend another £250 just on a battery. Not fussed about the weight, as long as it fits in the cage i'm happy.
can i just buy the same battery that i've got in the engine bay? The one i've got in engine bay is an Odyssey 'extreme' ODS-AGM15L.
@rojid, This sounds like it is a PDM system issue. Unfortunately I haven't worked with the PDM system yet. Did you check the lights on the sidewall of the cockpit to make sure they are all green? Beyond that I would recommend calling your local Radical dealer. Sorry I can't help more.
@rojid, I asked one of my friends at a Radical Dealership about your issue and he told me that they have seen the issue with the starters running on until the master switch is turned off. But they said that they haven't seen any that didn't reset, or damage the battery.
I have been thinking about the best way to trouble shoot this. There seem to possibly be two issues going on here. The first one is to figure out why the second battery isn't holding a charge and why it isn't being recharged sufficiently. You mentioned that this is the "second battery" so I believe you are talking about the battery in the sidepod. The battery in the engine bay is charged by the engine charging system and the battery in the side pod is being charged by a stand alone charger. So the battery in the engine bay only charges when the engine is running. The battery in the side pod is only charged when the power is on (I don't believe it required the engine to be running). So to trouble shoot this issue I would start by trying to determine if the issue is that your are not providing enough charging time or if there is a drain on the battery.
The second issue is that power is not getting to the starter. Since the original issue was that the starter wouldn't stop, I would start by troubleshooting at the switch. I would check to see if there is 12v power at the "upstream" side of the switch and not at the "downstream" sided. That would show that the power is making it to the switch and that the switch is shutting the power off (as it should). If you don't have power to the "upstream" side of the switch you should keep following the circuit upstream until you find where the power is and what is keeping it from progressing down stream.
If you find that there is power on the upstream side of the starter switch I would check the "upstream" and "downstream" sides while the starter button is being pushed to verify that the switch is allowing power past.
If the power is making it past the switch I would keep checking the circuit to see where the power is stopping and what is causing it to stop.
I hope this help. I am looking forward to hearing what the problem is.
@charleyhradicalsportscarregistry-com
I'll be trying it next weekend when I get a chance.
I had a go earlier in the week to troubleshoot with my multimeter.
Bit difficult doing it on my own but using a pool cue to push the starter whilst holding the red terminal on the cable terminal at the top of the starter, and the black terminal on the chassis, it was reading no volts.
So that led me to the batteries, I've bought a replacement one, not a fancy lightweight lithium thing but the same one as in the main engine bay, an odyssey AGM 15L.
It's much heavier than the lithium ones but hopefully it just all works when I drop it in next weekend. Fingers crossed.
If not then I bought a spare starter for £150 so will try that after, after trying your follow the power method above.
@charleyhradicalsportscarregistry-com
the new battery made no difference 😓
tried a new starter, also no different - though wasn't expecting this to work anyway since there's no power going to it.
so, it's definitely the relay that is clicking, when i press the power button. Held it with my fingers as i pushed the power button and could feel the click.
There's 2 power leads going into it, one reads 12.xx V, and the other reads -12.xx V.
When i unplug the 2nd battery, the lead that reads negative volts no longer registers.
Don't know why it's -ve, but i guess it shows that power from both batteries is going to the relay.
I guess its safe to assume that everything from the starter button downstream is working??
Tried to follow the lead coming from the top of the starter with my finger, do you know where that connection ends?
Could it be the fuse? I'll pop a new 30A fuse in tomorrow into the relay, see what happens - though i doubt its something as simple as this, as i can hear the relay clicking.
what a nightmare. Can't believe this is happening, and i haven't even got it on track yet. I think to troubleshoot anymore i'll have to remove the sidepod so i can follow the connections.
i can't check the PDM either because the side panel i've got isn't the one you'd get in an XX with a clear window... just ordered a cheap inspection camera so i can feed it through a hole and have a look.
not sure how i can remove that panel easily either, looks like its rivetted on?
If i want to go further 'upstream', i'm surely going to have to remove the sidepod/panel so i can at least follow the wiring back to the charger.
The starter button is definitely registering voltage which goes up when i press it - i can see this in RS3 via the live measures.
@rojid ... I know this sounds stupid, but are you sure that one of the batteries isn't connected in reverse? I'm not exactly sure about where/how you're measuring the voltages, but it seems strange that the voltage on one of the relay terminals changes when you unplug the second battery. It might also explain why you are completely draining your second battery... and probably points to that battery being the one that's hooked up backwards (positive terminal to the cars ground circuit/chassis and ground to the positive circuit) That might also explain why the relays just clicks when you activate the starter.... the main battery voltage (+12v) would be cancelled out or even grounded by the other battery voltage and it's connection to ground. I would imagine that this would place stress on any fuse in the circuit as well... so definitely have a good look at that and check that there is still continuity across it's terminals as a first step.
You may get good enough access through the sidepod 'hatch panel' to see/check the second battery connections.... but I think at this stage taking the side-pod off would be a good step to at least let you get a good look at everything.... this has been going on now for quite a while and it doesn't take that long to remove the side-pod.
just waiting for a weekend of decent weather here in UK (a rarity) before removing sidepod (following Charley's guide off here!). It wouldn't surprise me if the wiring is a mess and things are backwards, given the cars history.
So firstly, i was getting terms mixed up.
By relay i actually meant starter solonoid. The polarity wasn't changing when unplugging a battery;
- firstly i measured both terminals on the solonoid with the master switch off. Only 1 of the terminals was reading voltage, negative 12.x V. Looking at the 24V starting diagram on here, i think this makes sense; the lead runs from the starter solonoid to the Negative terminal on the sidepod battery, so this will always show a reading (i think..).
- then with master switch on, i had readings on both terminals; positive 12.x V, and negative 12.xV.
- at this point i hadn't looked at the wiring diagram on here properly, and i then disconnected the sidepod battery and checked the terminals again. The terminal which was showing negative reading then showed no reading, and the other terminal continued to show the voltage from master battery (master on)
so i conclude that the voltages from both batteries are reaching the solonoid like they should. The starter button is activating it (the clicking) but its like its then not sending anything to the starter. The starter button does register voltage increase, i can see it in RS3 when i press it.
Just checked the second battery today, reading the same voltage as yesterday, so it's not draining.
Something crapped itself when i started the car that day....can' tthink what, but i'm sure the stuck-on cranking had something to do with it (though the car did then start after that).
I've ordered another solonoid..lets hope that fixes it, otherwise its then time to remove sidepod and change leads bit by bit....
removed the sidepod today (thanks to the guide on here) - easy job to remove thankfully, though trying to install it back on my own is going to be a task...
made a video showing the wiring - looks like things are a bit different due to how it all links to the PDM?
@rojid , that video is very helpful. I didn’t realize that your car is not an XX but has the XX PDM system in it. What chassis number is your car? And who installed the PDM system? How long has the car been operated with the PDM system? If the car hasn’t been operated much with the PDM system that increases the possibility that the PDM system may not be installed properly. If the car has been running well with that system for a while it would point more to a part failure.
Assuming that the car has been operated for a while with the PDM system installed and everything has been working properly your trouble shooting seems to point to a faulty solenoid.
@charleyhradicalsportscarregistry-com
yes its a bit of a frankenstein. chassis 645.
it was an Aim development car for the XX, whilst being raced. It ran like that through the 2021 radical challenge season. Fingers crossed i replace the solenoid (and possibly new leads) and it'll just work, otherwise its off to a specialist. Very annoying that i have to take off the sidepod just to see the PDM...will have to replace that panel with an XX one.
just seems bizarre to me how the car can start (albeit after some cranking issue/intermittency) and then suddenly not. Only other time i experience something like this is building a new PC!
Well... Replaced the solenoid and bingo. Starter is back to life.
I'll prize apart the old one, curious to know why it failed. I've got a lingering feeling that maybe there's a wider problem causing it to fail, and that the same thing will happen to the new one......
For now, Problem solved.
