FTR Gearbox problems

Josh -- no fix here, but I'm always trying to learn more about SR8s. I've got a 2009 that came with a Hewland JFR. I'm wondering if you meant JFR rather than FTR. Or does your car use the Hewland oil tank (the main difference between FTR and JFR, based on my understanding)? If so, got a picture? I'd love to see how Radical did that..

@parsonsj 

Thanks for the response- my understanding is that the FTR and JFR are very similar. My car definitely has the FTR 

Have you experienced any issues with excessive gear wear or breakages? 

My box does not have an oil pump or oil cooler which I am now going to fit 

Josh 

@jwb

Hey Josh,

I've got about 10 hours since the last refresh on my JFR. It was factory refreshed a couple of years ago, just before I bought this car. I found the original build order for it (Hewland can figure that out from serial numbers), and it was built in early 2006, so it's about the same age as yours. The gear lube that came out of the 'box looked great, and it didn't seem to have any issues at my last track event this past spring

It does have an oil pump and fluid to air cooler. I'm amazed yours did not! Do you have any datalogging or have any idea what kind of temps you were seeing? 

It's now on the shelf as my backup gearbox, as I'll be using my other gearbox (a newly refreshed Quaife Q58) for my next few events. 

@parsonsj

Hi John

Unfortunately with the current MBE management we don’t have data logging 

We will definitely fit an oil pump and cooler as well as temperature monitor 

I contacted Hewland and they have sent their diagnosis - it is actually a spacing problem - either the bearing spacer was left out or too much end float. So the specialist gearbox builder has made an error 

We will be meeting him on Friday to ho through the box together 

Hi Josh (@jwb),  As we discussed, I sent your "Ask Phil" question to Phil and here is his latest response.  I think it matches nicely with the response that you got form Hewland and gives you a couple of other areas to investigate.  

Hi Josh,

The key in this analysis is Prime information ( immediately opening gearbox ) , evidence and data is vital to get to the root cause most accurately and quickest in these instances 

We have to identify the Chicken and The egg , and decide what was the cause and what was the consequence 

From experience I will list my thoughts , each is a question to check 

1) Gears are running out of line ; 

Obvious but not necessarily biggest problem 

Spacers between gears in wrong place ? 

Lower or lay shaft end nut(s) loose ? Were they loose on opening the box ? 

Allowing gear to move back , this would also permit ‘hammer’ action to chip first tooth ( then all hell breaks loose ) 

2) debris from previous faults / blow ups still in cooler ? 

Was it all washed out previously ? 

Occasionally a small piece will get between two teeth , crack the whole tooth out , that goes through other gears , all other damage is the the consequence not the cause , happens very quickly at 8,000rpm 

3) overheating tooth face ; 

Poor Or insufficient lubrication , causes a pit or a crack , then point 2 comes into play 

Cooling Pump Drive failure ( due to debris ) 

Bearing wear or failure 

Best oil we found to help the gearbox was NEO synthetic ,( from CA)  big step above anything else we tried , especially in final drive pinion life 

Also to be borne in mind , this Hewland transmission is right on its design limit of HP and Torque capacity , particularly at 10,000 rpm input speed (8 tooth pinion ) 

So it has to be tip top Condition to perform faultlessly , cooler functioning well also 

Hope this helps, 

Kind Regards 

Phil Abbott

Josh (@jwb), I had a follow up conversation with Phil about the input you got from Hewland and I also told him that your car doesn't have a trans cooler or pump and this was his response...

You can’t run these gear boxes without cooling , I ran the very first one at Bruntingthorpe airfield , within 4 laps (8 miles) , the oil temperature was 140c , and climbing 

That’s only because we were measuring it ..........

So it got a cooling and circulation pump on everyone since.

If he is running it that hot, (and he will most definitely be ) there are other problems ,

There are bluing marks on what is left of the damaged gear teeth, and the gear next to it has the print of some debris in tooth face ,  we need to see pictures of the crown wheel and pinion at the other end of the gearbox 

And the rear end cover housing casting 

Let’s see if it ever had a pump on it? it’s a simple fit, I used the pump off the Quaife SR3 gear drive unit 

The cooled oil Returning to the box, needs to be directed onto the pinion to cool And lubricate that first.

Need to measure elements of operation more. 

The Initial test and pump story was quite interesting ; ( fun ) 

We fitted first Hewland , I asked if they recommended cooling the oil ? They said , no need , ( 300+HP and 200ft lbs !?! ) they sent an engineer to first test 

I did one lap , oil was 110 degrees , 3 more it was 140 degrees , 

I asked engineer does he want me to do anymore , he said no , don’t run it 

I asked for Hewland to quote on the pump fitment , that was Thursday 

Following Wednesday , 5 working days , for a quote , he called with a price of £1500 and 6-8 weeks design / delivery .....

I said, oh ? Do you want to come test Our pump and radiator installation ?.........

He said - when ? - now , meet you there ( Bruntingthorpe was on his route home ) 

10 laps flat out stable at 95 degrees 

He asked how ? We did the job in the time it took to get a feasibility and quote from Hewland - because we could . He was incredulous.

We bored a hole in end casing in line with lay shaft, installed slot drive inside the shaft , designed and made a mounting plate and bolted it to the cover with 6 screws , bolted the Quaife pump to that , pulled the oil out of drain plug area, through radiator mounted behind water rad , put oil back in top of gearbox, toward pinion, fixed two issues in one as we found out later it extended the pinion life ! 👍

So hopefully this particular gearbox may have a pump flange on rear so he can fix this constant issue 

Kind Regards 

Phil Abbott

Wow, love hearing back stories like this. Thanks Charley, and thanks Phil!

@parsonsj, me too. I really enjoy hearing Phil’s stories. 

@charleyhradicalsportscarregistry-com

Hi John

Thanks for the response - it certainly has provided valuable info.

We have since fitted new gears and are busy adding an oil pump and oil cooler.

One theory from the gearbox specialist regarding the problem is that the paddle shift was not set up according to the gear ratios. We recently changed the crown wheel and pinion as well as a few ratios.

Is it necessary to then adjust the settings via the ECU? 

Regards

@jwb, I have never heard of anyone resetting the settings on the ECU for a gear change. I assume that you have the Geartronics Paddle shift system, is that correct?

Charley

@charleyhradicalsportscarregistry-com

Hi, Yes it's the geartronics paddle shift We have changed to a different crownnwheel and pinion from what we previously used as well as different gear ratios. Regards

Hi Josh,

That does look like a spacer issue that’s caused the failure’s. Possibly the spacer that looks like a washer (somewhere around 2-3mm thickness) and comes as part of the end case bearing for the layshaft, has been left out. I’ve made that mistake before and it made a hell of a mess!!! Sure you also now know that is 3rd gear that is broken on the pictures you posted, but that’s kind of irrelevant if it is the spacer being left out, any of the gears could have broken.

Absolutely 100% you have to run a cooler for the SR8 no matter what gearbox you are running. When the oil doesn’t make it to the cooler for whatever reason, you know about it when you pull the box apart as the oil smells burnt.

What CWP ratio have you put in? They normally run 9:31. Might be too late but I thoroughly recommend getting it (and all the gears) super finished. And yes you should adjust the ratios in the geartronics gcu.

Think I’ve mostly said what you already know, so more confirmation than anything else.

Hope you can get it sorted

@parsonsj

Hi John,

It could be an ftr with the bell housing machined off which is what some of the very early sr8’s with a hewland box ran. Don’t think there was too many of those. I’m not sure why that happened, maybe there wasn’t enough jfr’s?

Layshaft bearing, comes in 3 parts when you get a new one. Outer race, inner race and a 3mm spacer. I’m now 2nd guessing and will have to have a look in my gearbox, but I think you need the 3mm spacer before the inner race goes on the end of the shaft. Will post again when I have checked.